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2015 Hugo Awards Discussion
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justifiedsinner
Posted 2015-04-06 9:40 AM (#10066 - in reply to #9299)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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It's kind of sad. I guess it's too much to hope that the books were going to be judged on their quality rather than their ideology put since the nominations process is a popularity contest it was always going to become political. Vox Day (who appropriately abbreviates himself as VD on his posts) points out that Scalzi, Stross and Tor have been dedicated log-rollers for years and that the Puppies have just done it better. If this continues the Hugos can only become less relevant over time and awards like the Campbell, Clarke and PKD become more prominent.

If anyone is interested this site offers a puppy free voting list http://deirdre.net/the-puppy-free-hugo-award-voters-guide
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illegible_scribble
Posted 2015-04-07 1:30 AM (#10067 - in reply to #10066)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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justifiedsinner - 2015-04-07 2:40 AM

Vox Day (who appropriately abbreviates himself as VD on his posts) points out that Scalzi, Stross and Tor have been dedicated log-rollers for years and that the Puppies have just done it better.

Except that that's a hugely false equivalency, and the Sad Puppies know it, but they plaster it everywhere to justify their bad behavior, in the hopes that the people who see it will swallow it whole, and won't take the time and effort to go check for themselves.

Scalzi does three Awards Eligibility posts every year. The first is his own eligible works (and he started doing this way back when, because he was inundated with requests from fans for the information, as he would be every year if he didn't post it):
The 2015 Awards Consideration Post

He also, every year, provides an open thread for other creators (writers, artists, bloggers, whatever) to post a link to examples of their own work:
SF/F Authors/Editors/Artists/Fan Creators 2015 Award Awareness Post

And he also, every year, provides an open thread for fans to post a link to examples of work they really like (writing, art, blogs, jewelry, whatever)
The 2015 SF/F Fans Award Recommendation Thread

Doesn't look much "log-rolling", does it?


Here's Charles Stross' 2014 post. He lists 1 novel, and 1 novella:
Because people keep asking me...

Here's Stross' 2015 post. He mentions 1 novel -- but doesn't even give its title:
Sitrep

That doesn't bear much resemblance to "log-rolling", either.


Here's Tor.com's 2015 post. They list 4 Novellas, 18 Novelettes, and 52 Short Stories. Given that nominators are only allowed 5 entries per category, it's pretty hard to see this as an attempt at nomination ballot-stuffing:
Tor.com’s Hugo and Nebula-Eligible Fiction from 2014

I couldn't find a Novel eligibility listing from Tor Books -- but that's hardly surprising, given the list for 2014 from isfDB (and this doesn't even include the 2014 novels from Tor subsidiaries).


A lot of authors posts lists of their eligible works for the past year. I, for one, really appreciate it -- because I often can't remember if something I read a year ago was published in that year, or the year before, and because I read so many novels (last year it was around 135) that while I try to take note of the best ones for nomination use later, I don't always remember to do so.

A lot of fans also post lists of their preferences (hey, I even did that at an earlier point in this thread) -- but I would hope you agree that my post bears no resemblance to "I voted for these, now you go out and vote for the same ones, too!", and I've never seen another fan list that comes even close to saying something like that, either. 


Now, compare-and-contrast that to the Rabid Puppies and Sad Puppies lists, which are deliberately designed and promoted to be nominated as a slate. (I won't link to them, but if you Google each of those phrases, you'll find the lists and their accompanying exhortations easily enough. Though I don't recommend it, if you wish to keep your dinner in your stomach where it belongs.)

Sad/Rabid Puppies supporters have been openly admitting all over the internet that the intent is to completely fill the nomination slate with their selected entries and "take back" the Hugos from whatever sinister cabal their paranoid minds have conjured up.


And yes, if they continue to do this for several years, it will indeed continue to devalue the Hugo Awards to the point where they are meaningless. One highly-esteemed author of my acquaintance (whose books are the kind the Sad Puppies claim to support) told me "I'm glad I got my Hugos back when they still meant something."

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DrNefario
Posted 2015-04-07 6:51 AM (#10068 - in reply to #9299)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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Yes, one or two self-promoted works on a ballot aren't going to affect anything. There is still a choice. There is no choice, this year, in several of the categories. The puppies are so confident that their stuff is great that they haven't allowed any alternatives on the shortlists. And some of it is just outright trolling.

I'm out. I'm not interested in voting this year. I feel like a counter-slate is still a failure. I hope they get no-awarded this year, but that still means the Hugo has failed. It is probably not the case that there were no award-worthy short stories in 2014, but that's the slate the voters are left with. A small number of dedicated wreckers can ruin it for everyone. It is quite often thus.

The two main proposals for a solution seem to be to open the nominations wider - I'm not sure this helps, since it's actually pretty rare for people to read enough new material to make a nomination. 2014 was the first year I'd read more than 5 new books - or to make them narrower - restrict them to attending memberships, which might work, but could affect supporting membership numbers (and therefore Worldcon funds) badly.

Maybe it's just not worth saving. Does it even still have the same role, now it's possible for books to get buzz that even I can see, as a non-con-goer, through other means?
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illegible_scribble
Posted 2015-04-07 7:14 AM (#10069 - in reply to #10068)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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DrNefario - 2015-04-07 11:51 PM

I'm out. I'm not interested in voting this year.

If you've already got a membership, I hope you'll still vote -- if only to make plain your disgust with the way that any slate, regardless of the politics or motivation behind it, ruins the awards. That's what I intend to do.

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Rhondak101
Posted 2015-04-07 10:06 AM (#10070 - in reply to #9299)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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I wrote a post the other day and lost it by hitting the return at the wrong time. (My old browser does not play well with this forum). Anyway, what I was going to say is what got lost in Saturday's announcement is that the Tiptree Award was also announced--Jo Walton and Monica Byrne as co-winners. And the honor list looks fabulous. http://tiptree.org/

So in light of a less-diverse Hugo slate (for the foreseeable future), I think the Tiptrees are a must for this site. And with the Tiptrees will come the ability to add short fiction works--the place where the Hugo's most spectacular fail happened. I am looking forward to having the ability to learn about good, new short fiction from those on the site who keep up with it. I used to depend on the Hugo nominations, but not anymore! My apologies to Dave and Warghoul who I know are working very hard in their real jobs and working to make the Tiptrees happen.
I can't think of any spectacular way to thumb my nose at the Puppies, so I have to act and think locally, and since I think of WWE as my "local" community, I want to help make it a place with more SFF diversity.
Rhonda
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DrNefario
Posted 2015-04-07 10:28 AM (#10071 - in reply to #10069)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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illegible_scribble - 2015-04-07 1:14 PM

DrNefario - 2015-04-07 11:51 PM

I'm out. I'm not interested in voting this year.

If you've already got a membership, I hopeyou'll still vote -- if only to make plain your disgust withthe way that any slate, regardless of the politics or motivation behind it, ruins the awards. That's what I intend to do.


I don't have a membership this year. It was last year's membership that gave me the right to nominate.

I'm kind of interested to find out what the real shortlists should have been, when the numbers are released after Worldcon.
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pizzakarin
Posted 2015-04-07 12:16 PM (#10072 - in reply to #10071)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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DrNefario - 2015-04-07 10:28 AM
I'm kind of interested to find out what the real shortlists should have been, when the numbers are released after Worldcon.


Ditto. It's a shame we won't know until August and that those authors didn't get the recognition boost that they deserve. I'm terribly curious to know if any part of the Southern Reach trilogy was nominated (though I know it was divisive enough that it probably wasn't and I was already disappointed that Authority, the 2nd entry, didn't make the PKD shortlist).
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pizzakarin
Posted 2015-04-07 12:24 PM (#10073 - in reply to #10070)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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Rhondak101 - 2015-04-07 10:06 AM
I can't think of any spectacular way to thumb my nose at the Puppies, so I have to act and think locally, and since I think of WWE as my "local" community, I want to help make it a place with more SFF diversity.


Likewise. Since becoming active here I've put a lot of effort into reading diversely and it has paid off so much that I am a little baffled by the anti-diversity backlash. It doesn't take being a "social justice warrior" to have the thought to reach for stories from people unlike myself and to realize the value of reading widely.
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spoltz
Posted 2015-04-07 3:52 PM (#10074 - in reply to #9299)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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I usually don't buy new books (the Golem and the Jinni was one exception), though I now have a nook linked to my ex-mother-in-law's account, so if she gets a new book, I have access to it. I'm kind of a library guy, and the waiting lists for new books are always so huge. So I can't complain because I don't vote, being usually at least a year behind on new titles. Still, I find the ballot box stuffing to be just abhorrent. This whole controversy just saddens me because I am just about to wrap up my going-on-three-year-long Hugo award challenge (two re-reads left). It turned into a labor of love and I don't regret it, even reading "The Forever Machine" :-P Ok,maybe I regret that one. But on a positive note, it was this effort that led me to jfrantz's old blog, which had a link to WWEnd. That's how I discovered this community. And I find books I want to read from the reviews, by reasearching for and seeing what others read for the challenges, and by looking at the other awards lists. This site and you folks are my SF/F community and I appreciate all of you. So ditto Karin and Rhonda!
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DrNefario
Posted 2015-04-07 4:33 PM (#10075 - in reply to #9299)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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The Forever Machine at least has the virtue of being short.
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illegible_scribble
Posted 2015-04-07 9:10 PM (#10076 - in reply to #10073)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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pizzakarin - 2015-04-08 5:24 AM

Rhondak101 - 2015-04-07 10:06 AM
I can't think of any spectacular way to thumb my nose at the Puppies, so I have to act and think locally, and since I think of WWE as my "local" community, I want to help make it a place with more SFF diversity.

Likewise. Since becoming active here I've put a lot of effort into reading diversely and it has paid off so much that I am a little baffled by the anti-diversity backlash. It doesn't take being a "social justice warrior" to have the thought to reach for stories from people unlike myself and to realize the value of reading widely.

Exactly. I've never been just a niche reader; I've always read and liked a reasonably broad selection of SFF across various genres. And my reading has always included a fair number of the sort of books that the SPs say are "Real SF". But I'll be d*mned if I'm going to let them tell me that's all I get to read.

I love the way that WWEnd has helped me to expand on my reading experience, especially with the challenges to read more books by and featuring women and LGBTQ. Sure, I've encountered what were, for me, a few "duds" -- but that has always been the case, and I've encountered way more new authors whose works I genuinely enjoy -- and whose works have undoubtedly made me a better, wiser person for reading them.

And I really appreciate the genuineness and thoughtfulness of the members here who post reviews. I certainly don't agree with all of them, but the added perspective is hugely helpful. I love that the people here are all about reading the books -- ALL THE BOOKS -- and that everyone leaves their personal aggro at the door when they log in.

This place is like the anti-Facebook. High-quality content and discussion, non-existent levels of aggro.



Edited by illegible_scribble 2015-04-07 9:12 PM
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daxxh
Posted 2015-04-07 10:22 PM (#10077 - in reply to #10076)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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illegible_scribble - 2015-04-07 7:10 PM

pizzakarin - 2015-04-08 5:24 AM

Rhondak101 - 2015-04-07 10:06 AM
I can't think of any spectacular way to thumb my nose at the Puppies, so I have to act and think locally, and since I think of WWE as my "local" community, I want to help make it a place with more SFF diversity.

Likewise. Since becoming active here I've put a lot of effort into reading diversely and it has paid off so much that I am a little baffled by the anti-diversity backlash. It doesn't take being a "social justice warrior" to have the thought to reach for stories from people unlike myself and to realize the value of reading widely.

Exactly. I've never beenjust a niche reader; I've always read and liked a reasonably broad selection of SFF across various genres.And my reading has always included a fair number of the sort of books that the SPs say are "Real SF". But I'll be d*mned if I'm going to let them tell me that's all I get to read.

I love the way that WWEnd has helped me to expand on my reading experience, especially with the challenges to read more books by and featuring women and LGBTQ. Sure, I've encountered what were, for me, a few "duds" -- but that has always been the case, and I've encountered way more new authors whose works I genuinely enjoy -- and whose works have undoubtedly made me a better, wiser person for reading them.

And I really appreciate the genuineness and thoughtfulness of the members here who post reviews. I certainly don't agree with all of them,but the added perspective is hugely helpful. I love that the people here are all about reading the books -- ALL THE BOOKS -- and that everyone leaves their personal aggro at the door when they log in.

This place is like the anti-Facebook. High-quality content and discussion, non-existent levels of aggro.




Yes! I love this site because I've been able to find books that I probably would not have read otherwise. I like looking through other peoples' challenge lists for recommendations. I've found some really good books, e.g. Aliette de Bodard's Obsidan and Blood Trilogy, that I loved that I probably never would have discovered had I not been on this site.

I haven't decided if I will get a membership to Sasquan and vote. illegible_scribble is right in that if enough people like us vote, those with the political agenda will be outnumbered, so I probably will. I've read Ancillary Sword (loved) and am reading The Goblin Emperor now (too much clothing and jewelry and manners for me - hope it gets better). The Dark Between the Stars and Lines of Departure both look like something I would like. I haven't read any Jim Butcher and don't really want to start at book 15 in the series. (But the library has 4 copies on the new pb shelf, so I have ready access to it.)

Being a woman in a male dominated field, I've seen similar attitudes for years. It's nice to see that the younger generations don't seem to have the same biases and we can only hope that in the future, we can look back and shake our heads at those who feared change. .
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DrNefario
Posted 2015-04-08 6:47 AM (#10078 - in reply to #9299)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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I read both the Marko Kloos books in January, courtesy of the Kindle Lending Library (which coincidentally also got me two Sarah Monette books last year), and enjoyed them a lot. They don't do anything particularly original, but they are enjoyable chunks of mil-SF, provided the present tense doesn't bug you too much. I preferred the first one, Terms of Enlistment. The second one, Lines of Departure, didn't bring enough new to the table, for me, so it just missed out on my nomination. Terms of Enlistment was 2013, and so wasn't eligible, and if it had been I would have nominated it. I think I did nominate Kloos for the Campbell, but I guess he didn't have the Puppy backing for that (or is actually ineligible). He goes down in my estimation if he was complicit in the ballot-rigging, and I think he'll be harmed more than helped by it, which is a shame.

I've read the first Dresden book, and didn't think enough of it to read any more. I understand the first one is notably weak, and not representative, but I have plenty of other stuff to read.
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justifiedsinner
Posted 2015-04-08 11:08 AM (#10079 - in reply to #9299)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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The Dresden Files books are pot-boilers but they get better as the series progresses (I got up to 9 before I moved on). He starts at a fairly high level of action and then keeps upping the ante which is what you want in these type of books. However given all the other possible nominees it is not one I would have nominated. While I wouldn't expect Memory of Water or Station Eleven to appear the lack of such novels as Annihilation or The Three Body Problem is ridiculous.

Edited by justifiedsinner 2015-04-08 11:09 AM
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Weesam
Posted 2015-04-08 5:53 PM (#10082 - in reply to #10079)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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I have to ditto pretty much everything illegible_scribble said. That sums up my reading and experience as well. What I am beginning to love and appreciate about WWEnd is that it leaves all the politics and ism's (sexism, racism etc) out and is just a like-minded group of people who love to read books. Everyone welcome.

I've tried Butcher's Dresden Files, and don't really get the fuss. I didn't care much for book 1, tried book 2 to see if it got better (it didn't), and haven't bothered with any more. I'm quietly obsessed with The Goblin Emperor, so I have my fingers crossed for it to win.

And I'm loving the Arthur C Clarke noms list. Now there is a short list I can get behind!
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Engelbrecht
Posted 2015-04-11 12:42 AM (#10095 - in reply to #9299)
Subject: RE: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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What a debacle.  I don't really have much to add to what's already been said, but it's been cheering to read everyone coming together on this.

As to voting, If you are eligible, I would urge you to do so.  If you don't think that one or more of the nominees is Hugo worthy, then vote No Award.  To not vote is a tacit endorsement of the Sad Puppy slate.  It won't be the end of the world if there were a number of No Awards, and it would certainly spur changes to the process.
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illegible_scribble
Posted 2015-04-11 12:58 AM (#10097 - in reply to #9299)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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That's what's most upsetting to me -- that they've turned something which I used to use as a Reading Guide (the Hugo Nomination longlist) into something that's less than helpful or meaningful, possibly next to worthless.

I've no doubt that in the past there were tiny little groups who banded together to try to get a work on the ballot. But this utter repudiation of integrity, of good-faith, of letting the majority preference percolate its way to the top, is just disappointing and disgusting.

And I'm not at all impressed by the people who are saying, "Hey, it's nothing to do with me!", but who are quite willing to ride the SP coattails to a Hugo nomination and maybe even a win.

All we can do is hope that at some point, the nasty trolls will get bored, and wander off.

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illegible_scribble
Posted 2015-04-11 10:45 PM (#10112 - in reply to #9299)
Subject: RE: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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Do you read a fair bit of SFF and would like to be able to express your opinions on what you read, in terms of nominating and voting for the Hugo Awards, but have not been able to afford to do so?

Because of the current concern that the Hugo process is too insular, a bunch of SFF fans have generously offered to provide supporting memberships in order to broaden the community of nominator/voters. These memberships include the right to vote this year (and the voter's packet of full or partial copies of nominated works) and the right to nominate (but not vote) next year.

The only requirement is that you be someone who reads and enjoyes SFF.

If you'd love to participate but money has been holding you back, you can find the entry form here .

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Badseedgirl
Posted 2015-04-15 2:51 PM (#10139 - in reply to #9299)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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Ok I have made it no secret that I love to read the "unloved" novels the best,but after reading about the disgusting things going on with the Hugos. I have decided to pay my fees and get a membership. I will be voting next year because I'll be damned if I will let some whiney baby group will ruin it when I finally do get around to reading the nominees!
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Badseedgirl
Posted 2015-04-15 2:51 PM (#10140 - in reply to #9299)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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Ok I have made it no secret that I love to read the "unloved" novels the best,but after reading about the disgusting things going on with the Hugos. I have decided to pay my fees and get a membership. I will be voting next year because I'll be damned if I will let some whiney baby group will ruin it when I finally do get around to reading the nominees!
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DrNefario
Posted 2015-04-15 4:20 PM (#10141 - in reply to #9299)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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Now Marko Kloos has withdrawn his novel, and Anne Bellett her short story.
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justifiedsinner
Posted 2015-04-15 4:42 PM (#10142 - in reply to #9299)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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@DrNefario. I just read that. Anne Bellett said she feels she was conscripted into a game of political dodge ball with herself both player and ball. Kloos says that he doesn't want to have anything to do with VD.
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Administrator
Posted 2015-04-15 5:33 PM (#10143 - in reply to #10142)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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Can't blame them for pulling out under the circumstances. Hell, Connie Willis posted that she won't be a presenter this year. This situation keeps getting worse and worse. I feel for the folks that are caught up in it all. I haven't heard if there will be replacement noms for the folks that are withdrawing. More developments are sure to come. Is there a point at which they'll call it all off?
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illegible_scribble
Posted 2015-04-15 6:21 PM (#10144 - in reply to #10139)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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Badseedgirl - 2015-04-16 7:51 AM

Ok I have made it no secret that I love to read the "unloved" novels the best,but after reading about the disgusting things going on with the Hugos. I have decided to pay my fees and get a membership. I will be voting next year because I'll be damned if I will let some whiney baby group will ruin it when I finally do get around to reading the nominees!

Badseedgirl, there are close to 100 free supporting memberships for this year made available by fans who care, for anyone who loves SFF. I encourage you to try asking for one. If you haven't bought one already, you can find the entry form here .



Edited by illegible_scribble 2015-04-15 6:41 PM
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illegible_scribble
Posted 2015-04-15 6:22 PM (#10145 - in reply to #10142)
Subject: Re: 2015 Hugo Awards Discussion



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justifiedsinner - 2015-04-16 9:42 AM

 Anne Bellett said she feels she was conscripted into a game of political dodge ball with herself both player and ball. Kloos says that he doesn't want to have anything to do with VD.

Administrator - 2015-04-16 10:33 AM

Can't blame them for pulling out under the circumstances. Hell, Connie Willis posted that she won't be a presenter this year. This situation keeps getting worse and worse. I feel for the folks that are caught up in it all. I haven't heard if there will be replacement noms for the folks that are withdrawing. More developments are sure to come. Is there a point at which they'll call it all off?

Worldcon bylaws require that the Hugos be awarded (though a ceremony is not a requirement).

The Hugo Admin will now be going to the next entries on the nominating ballot with the most votes, asking if they'd accept being on the voting ballot... and possibly the next, and the next, and the next... I don't envy the poor guy. And these people will now be facing the heartbreaking knowledge that if the Puppies hadn't decide to destroy the process, they'd have had a legitimate Hugo nomination this year.

It's just heart-rending that so many good people are ending up as collateral damage to a malicious, childish tantrum.

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